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0:00:12.3 Chris Ronan: Hello there and welcome to Inside Geocaching HQ where we talk about what is happening at HQ in Seattle. I’m Chris Ronan or Rock Chalk on my Geocaching account. Thank you for having a listen to our podcast. If you have logged a geocache or a trackable on geocaching.com in recent days, then you have experienced the new logging flow that we released in early November. Today I catch up with Jessica and Ari from HQ’s product team to cover some of what’s new in that logging flow. Let’s get to it.
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0:00:52.5 CR: We are talking about the new geocache and trackable logging flow on geocaching.com, and I rounded up a couple of experts on this topic. I’ve got Jessica and Ari from HQ’s product team. So before we get into all the fun of telling people about this project, we’ll start by reintroducing you to everybody. You’ve both been on the podcast at different times, but for people that for whatever reason may have missed those, I can’t believe they did. They should rewind and listen to them because they were great when you guys were on before, but let’s tell everybody what you’re doing now, what your title is at HQ and what your day-to-day is like. And Jessica, I’ll start with you.
0:01:36.8 Jessica Randall: Awesome. Thank you, Chris. Jessica Randall, I’m a senior product designer and I primarily work on the website, so geocaching.com. And my day-to-day is working with the engineers and the product managers, looking at feedback from the community, deep diving into various projects and discussions, making wireframes and workflows. That’s a very quick summary of what I do.
0:02:14.5 CR: And can you beat that, Ari? That all sounds pretty exciting.
[laughter]
0:02:18.1 Ari Mendelson: Yeah, let’s see. My name is Ari, Geocaching username is Ari54321. Folks might recognize me on the podcast from two years ago when I came on to discuss GIFT. So I actually recently moved from the community team, which is where I was when I organized GIFT a couple of years ago, but the last year and a half or so, I had been working on Adventure Lab customer support, and now I’ve moved over to the product management team. So my new position is associate product owner for the web. So that means I’m working with Jessica pretty extensively on projects, but my general role is to help team one, which is one of our web development teams, to help prioritize work that we’re working on next, so prioritizing what new features we’re going to build, making sure that bugs are fixed, and there’s a whole long list of things that I can’t remember off the top of my head, but lots of collaboration with product designers, with our community team, and yeah, helping to shape the future of the website.
0:03:24.5 CR: And so you were both very involved in this project that we’re going to be talking about today, the new logging flow on the website on geocaching.com. Before we get into the nuts and bolts of it, for people that maybe haven’t read the release notes, and please feel free to do that, go to the Geocaching forums, read the release notes where there’s all the detail you can handle about this project. What’s the Reader’s Digest version of what this is about and what people will find when they start using this new logging flow? And I’ll let either one of you tackle that big question.
0:04:02.4 JR: I’ll start first and then you can kind of jump in, Ari. One of the big things is a consistent UI, user interface. So behaviors are the same across the whole entire logging flow project. So that’s for geocaching and trackables, like you mentioned. And it was also about getting rid of some technical debt, which is older system code that is just part of creating products. Things get outdated and then eventually we just need to kind of take the initiative to update the code bases and put things together. One of the things that folks probably, some probably had experience with, but the logging experience was, there was an older UI and then there was half of a newer one and I think that was updated in 2017. And then there was a way to kind of go back and forth, but then there was also a different system that the trackables was on. So we really wanted to kind of clean this up and put them all in one spot, which helps us do things faster in the future and try things out a lot easier because we’re only messing with one code base. Yeah.
0:05:21.7 CR: So yeah, that’s something I’ve seen people talking about in the community a little bit is I think some people have gotten used to the fact that they could, “Hey, I can opt out, I could go back and use this,” and people saying, “Why can’t you just keep having that?” Just keep having that opt out and I can always go back to the one that I’m used to. I think we’ve talked about this before, Jessica, on the previous podcast that I did with you. But for people that didn’t hear, why is that important to not have two different systems there that, the one that, “Hey, I don’t want to change. I like what I’m using. I don’t want to do this new thing.” Why can’t we just do it that way?
0:06:01.6 JR: Yeah. I mean, there is definitely a want to keep things unchanged. There’s the phrase, if it’s not broken, why try to change it or fix it? But really it becomes because we had, there was literally three or even four, I don’t even know that much, that would be an engineering ask, maybe Ari knows. There was like four different code stacks that all of this logging flow experience lived on, so it took a lot longer when we updated something. And we’ll get more into this, but there was an example when we had the date, when you selected a date on the geocaching log and we had to update that and take that away from the new experience. And there was a lot of folks asking why, especially because it was still in the trackable logging flow. Well, that was because they lived on two different code bases. And so we could update it and were compliant when we removed it from the geocaching logging flow, and we didn’t need to for the trackable. And the goal for a product is always to kind of be in this one location, clean space, because again, it makes things move faster. We can update quicker. And so that opt-out banner, I’ll admit I wasn’t here during that time, but we’ve implemented some of that before.
0:07:27.8 JR: And usually it’s when we’re trying things out and giving our users some time to kind of do the transition, because I think that was ultimately the goal in 2017 was to go back and move everything back. But change takes time. [laughter] And we had different priorities. So it was just something we prioritized this last year to get that all in one location. And so the opt-out banner was seen as a feature, but honestly it was limiting because it meant that our code… Like, those pages still lived in different code stacks. So it was more complicated when we wanted to make a change. And for the folks that did use both, there was definitely inconsistency between the two. And so we’re trying to eliminate that where possible. Ari, do you have anything to add?
0:08:20.6 AM: Yeah, I think another thing that we really tried to do was take the best of both worlds from both of those old logging experiences, because there were really good reasons that some people stuck with the older flow, some people preferred the newer ones for specific features that we had added to that 2017 version. And so with this new flow we kind of combined all the best features of both so that hopefully everyone has a better experience. It’s a little bit of a change in the experience as far as, maybe the button moved a little bit or something like that. But ultimately, there are lots of new features that people hopefully will be excited about.
0:09:01.4 CR: Yeah, let’s talk about the new features a little bit, Ari. So what is top of mind for you? I mean, I don’t know, we can list them all if you want to, but what are some of the ones that you think are the most valuable to users?
0:09:16.1 AM: One of the big ones is the pinned date feature. So, for a long time, we had a sort of sticky date. So it would remember if you’re going back and logging a whole bunch of geocaches that you logged on a previous date, it would remember the date from log to log. But now the user can actually control it. So there’s a little thumbtack icon where you can pin the date or unpin it. And that allows players to customize their experience. So if they want to use that feature, they can, or they can opt out now, which caused some confusion before when people didn’t know that the date was sticky. I know I’ve gotten confused by it before. Like, “Why is it using this other date?” “Oh, I forgot I had logged this other thing.” So now I can prevent that from happening with the new pinned date feature. I’m also excited that the maximum log text is now 5,000 characters instead of 4,000. That’s great for me because I love writing long logs.
0:10:11.0 CR: Oh geez.
0:10:13.4 AM: And now I have even more space for my crates.
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0:10:18.2 CR: Oh no, you’re killing me. You’re killing me. For people like me that were on our GPS’s, we’re scrolling through the logs looking for a little hint from somebody’s log, and we got to scroll through now a 5,000 word log to get to the next one that might have something in there that we need. So thanks a lot, Ari.
[laughter]
0:10:36.3 AM: Guilty as charged.
[laughter]
0:10:41.8 AM: I’ll send you a list of some other folks. I know they do that. So you can send us all an email with your complaints perhaps.
0:10:45.2 CR: Oh, believe me. I’ve already got the list.
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0:10:48.3 AM: Oh yeah, that’s true.
[laughter]
0:10:53.4 CR: Okay. So yeah, so you like that. So what else do you like?
0:10:57.8 AM: Another huge improvement is in the image uploading and editing. Now users can upload images while they’re writing their log and you can go in and add all of your image details, image name. You can also rotate. So that used to only be possible after you had submitted the log, after you had uploaded the image, then you could go edit it. Now you can do all of that while you’re logging. So there’s no need anymore to open up your log and upload images later or open up your log and rotate your images later. You can do it all right when you’re submitting a log in the first place, is a lot of really great, great future.
0:11:35.5 AM: Another big thing which we just had a blog post about is we have now renamed the Needs Maintenance and Needs Archive logs. So those are now Owner Attention Requested and Reviewer Attention Requested. So that’s another… I think really closing the loop. We’ve changed that in a lot of places in the app and website, but now it’s changed everywhere. And so that should hopefully give a lot of people more clarity as to what those log types really mean, should encourage people hopefully to use them more.
0:12:02.6 CR: Yeah, we could probably do a whole episode about about that change and what it might mean for the community. I think that Needs Archives became this… People saw that and thought, “Oh, if I use this, that’s the death knell for a geocache,” and not really understanding that there was more to it. If you posted that log, it didn’t just automatically mean the cache was going to get archived. It meant… Well, it meant the same thing it means now. It meant that a reviewer was going to see it and they take a look at things. And same thing with Owner Attention Requests as opposed to Needs Maintenance. Yeah. I think that’s… I hope it’ll be a good change. I’ve seen some conversation in the community, mostly very positive. Some folks thinking, “Oh, it’s not going to make a difference,” but well, let’s see. Let’s see if it makes a difference before we pass judgment on it.
0:12:52.3 CR: And Ari, as you were talking about photos, it made me think of one of the topics that I’ve seen the community talking about, which is the limit on file sizes when you upload photo. And when this new log flow was released, the limit was five megabytes. And I think an example of how the team listens to community feedback and there’s already been some changes, and one of those is with this file upload limit. So can you talk about where that’s going to be going? Don’t know if it’s already going to be out by the time we publish this podcast, but it is going to be happening at some point.
0:13:28.9 AM: As I think probably most listeners of this podcast knows, serving the communities at the heart of everything we do at HQ, it’s what really keeps us going. And so of course, as part of a big release like this one, we keep close track of all the feedback that we get from the community. And this was really one of the biggest things that people asked me, “Why can I only upload five megabyte images now?” And so after some research, we realized we can raise it a little higher. So we’ll be raising the limit to 10 megabytes. There are a few other changes that we’re monitoring feedback for. And so as with any big project we’ll make sure that everything stays working, well, indefinitely. But listening to feedback for a little minor tweaks that we can make even after releasing.
0:14:13.0 CR: One thing I’ll point out to people if they haven’t been in the release notes thread in our Geocaching forums is that you will see that Ari is in there pretty regularly answering questions, providing some great information, and I think, again, just demonstrating that you and I’m sure Jessica and others on the team are reading the feedback there, and I have to imagine there are a variety of other outlets that you are keeping an eye on to get suggestions and feedback from the community as they are using this product.
0:14:44.7 JR: Oh yeah, I’m on forums, I’m on the social medias, I’m on Reddit. I am usually producing any sort of community feedback where I can get it. It helps my job of advocating for our users and our players and making sure that we’re building things that they can use and that they want.
0:15:05.5 CR: So you guys as players, because I know you both are geocachers as well, so as players kind of putting on your player hat, what do you like about this new logging flow as opposed to the various flows that we have in the past? Now that you’re using the new logging flow as players, what do you find that you like about it so far?
0:15:26.1 JR: I really do like the pin date. That was something I didn’t actually know was a thing. That was one of those confusing behaviors that I didn’t realize, so now seeing that, I like that. I also like being able to see a preview of our logs. That was something that lived on the older UI, but not… So I like being able to do that. And being able to format my logs, that has been cool ’cause now I can add emojis and add a little bit more to my logs when I’m logging. Those are some of my favorite things.
0:15:58.6 AM: I won’t mention the 5,000 character thing again, but…
0:16:03.7 CR: Thank you Ari for that. Appreciate it.
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0:16:04.3 JR: As you mention it.
0:16:05.4 AM: If I casually drop it back in the conversation. My favorite… Actually, one of my favorite things as a player is going in and editing logs on my phone, because it used to be when you want to edit a former log, one of my old logs, you’d have to go into the very old page, which is not optimized for mobile. So it’s like a desktop web page. You can zoom in on your phone as if you’re looking at a big monitor, but on your tiny device. No longer. Now with the new logging flow, it’s that one consistent experience is optimized for mobile. And so when I go into edit old logs, it’s a beautiful and seamless experience. And that’s really one of my favorite experience things. I also personally love, and this is another kind of new feature we haven’t touched on yet, is we removed the report a problem feature that was part of the 2017 logging flow and that would automatically generate what we now call owner attention requested or reviewer attention requested log, which didn’t have any details in it. So cache owners or reviewers would have to look at the find log to see what the issue was. Now I can go in and I can submit those log types separately and detail exactly what the issue is that requires the owner attention or the reviewers attention. So that’s another personal favorite of mine.
0:17:27.3 JR: Yeah, one of the things that I also like, I like that if I make a log, I’ll get a message from the person that deleted it as to why. So that was something that we’ve added is the ability for a admin or the cache owner to write a message to the log owner when they delete a log if it contains a spoiler or something else. And so now we’ll be able to communicate a little bit more because maybe they just didn’t know. And I like the thought of our cache owners helping out our community and letting them have reasons of what happened.
0:18:08.4 CR: Yeah, I’ve seen people talking about that in various places too that they like that that’s there because if you had a log deleted before and you were like, “Well, what did I do? Did I say something wrong? Did I… ” And you really had no idea. And so it is really great. For me, one thing I’ve noticed is that I was just so used to the old system and I was so used to the various… It turns out, extra steps that you had to do at times, finish your log, then you’d upload a photo separately. Or like Ari was saying, if you wanted to edit, rotate a photo or just various things, it was always an extra step. And I was so used to it that it just never occurred to me that that was a big deal. And now… Or I’m looking at the collapsible sections again, never occurred to me that those were taken up a lot of real estate on the page. And now I’m like, “Oh, they’re not, I can collapse those and they don’t take up as much real estate.” So there’s stuff that as I’m using it, I’m just kind of realizing, “Wow, I was doing a lot more work before that I don’t have to do now.” And that’s a really nice thing.
0:19:15.0 JR: Yeah. I’m really glad you brought that up. ‘Cause that is one of the things that I really strive for when we’re redesigning or like marrying two pages together, is reducing steps. And usually, yes, people, I spoke on this last time I was here, hate change. They don’t enjoy it because when you have a flow that you’re just do consistently or daily, weekly, it becomes second nature. And it’s just a rhythm. It’s like, “Da, da, da, da, da. I’m going to do it. These are my steps. I go through step one to 10.” And then when somebody takes three steps away from you and then you’re like, “Wait, now I have to go to one to seven.” Then it’s confusing. But then eventually you’ll learn, you’ll use it enough where you’re like, “Oh yeah, okay, this is cooler or this is an improved workflow.” And so that’s something that I really do strive for. I really, I enjoy it when people notice how much kind of… How much more time… Or not more time… How much more time they get back. But that’s what we’re saying, but how much time a process takes has been reduced by kind of just this improvement and how you can easily be able to find things in the future even though they may have changed a little bit, but you’ll get to it. And then it’ll become second nature again.
0:20:39.4 CR: So as you’ve both been and as the team has been watching feedback from the community in various places, what are you hearing the most from folks? I mean, we don’t have to go through all of it, but are there any themes that are coming across from the feedback that you’re seeing so far from the community?
0:21:00.8 JR: One of the things that I’ve noticed in the feedback that we’ve gotten is the fact that the submit button with a post button is now kind of not in view in the UI. And that’s because we’ve actually added in a preview section and there’s just a little bit more information in the UI. So it naturally has kind of gone below but if you collapse those kinds of previews or your trackable section it should get back up into the main view. I just thought that was a really interesting feedback that folks got.
0:21:37.0 AM: That reminds me of a number of… I’ve seen sort of a theme in some of feedback of things that seem like a worse user experience but are actually better when you consider all the different ways that people use the tool. And that’s part of what made this such a big project, which I think you probably know better than I do Jessica because you’ve been working on it longer. The logging flow is used for so many different reasons. So from a player perspective, log and finds DNFs need maintenance from a cache owner perspective, archiving of cache, disabling event announcements from a reviewer perspective, reviewers publish caches, they disable caches, they post reviewer notes. And so there are many, many, many different ways that people use it.
0:22:23.7 AM: And so in some cases like that post button example, the post button was way down at the bottom of the page. If you have 20,000 trackables, that would also be the case in the old logging flow because that long list of trackables would also push it down but now you can collapse it. So that’s a plus. But also if someone doesn’t have any trackables then that’s not feedback we’ve heard from them because it’s not pushing their post button down. And so it’s always very interesting to me to hear all the different feedback from different use cases. And because there are so many different people that use the logging flow there are always going to be little things that we missed here and there. Thankfully, we didn’t miss any major issues though. So that’s really the great news about this kind of logging.
0:23:12.1 CR: Is there anything either one of you would like people to know that we haven’t talked about about this project or maybe you can tell people how to get feedback if they’d like to do that? Just kind of any last thoughts as we kind of wrap things up here.
0:23:24.9 JR: One of the things that I’m also really proud about for this site is the view geocache log, like the details page. It wasn’t something that I was actually really well aware of before this project. I never went to go see a single logs page. I just look at in the activity feed. And so that was a fun redesign and it looks like a lot better in the sense of where things are and button management, and we’ve added just some labels to the page. And I’m really proud of that page. As far as giving feedback, we’d love to go on the forums where, like we said, we’re monitoring those. If you make a mention on social media, I’ll probably see it somewhere.
0:24:10.1 AM: In general, if you experience any bugs or anything, whether it’s on the logging flow or not, I always recommend people kind of restart their system. If you’re in a web browser, clear your cache, things like that. And if those don’t work, feel free to write in to our help center as well. ‘Cause sometimes those reports are really helpful in helping us see if there is a bug that’s widespread.
0:24:34.1 JR: Another good tip is to always make sure your browser is up to date.
0:24:37.1 AM: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. That’s part of the benefit of this release is the new logging flow is built on really modern web technology. And the only disadvantage of that is you have to have a recent web browser. So if you’ve been waiting to update your web browser for whatever reason, never a bad idea to update it.
0:24:56.6 CR: So if you haven’t used it yet, then you haven’t been logging anything the last several days. So get out there and use it, start logging your caches and your trackables, and test this new system out. I really appreciate you guys taking some time to talk about it. And I’m sure that you’ll be looking forward to hearing more about what the community has to say about this whole thing.
0:25:15.3 JR: Yeah. Thank you so much for having us. I really enjoy talking about these bigger projects that we’re on, and when we finally get to share them with the community.
0:25:27.4 AM: Yeah. Thank you so much for hosting us. Keep the feedback coming everyone. We really, really appreciate you.
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0:25:36.5 CR: That was Ari and Jessica from HQ’s product team. Now we referenced an earlier episode where Jessica was on and she talked about her role as a senior product designer. That was episode 58 back in January. You can find and listen to that one and learn more about what goes into designing products like the logging flow. And if there is a topic that you would like us to discuss on inside HQ, just drop me a line podcast@geocaching.com is our address. Thank you for listening from Jessica and Ari and me and all the lackeys at geocaching HQ, happy caching.